Outgoing President of the Christian Association of Nigeria, Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor, speaks with NOSA AKENZUA on his relationship with former President Goodluck Jonathan, the controversial Religious Bill of Kaduna State, succession in CAN and other issues
Ayo oritsejafor
As you round off your tenure as the President of the Christian Association of Nigeria, how far have you gone with the preparation to leave office?
There is nothing I have to prepare other than to do my handover notes.
The CAN appears disunited given the acrimony and mistrust being displayed by members of the association in the build-up to the May election. Is anything being done to put the house in order?
You are trying to get me to talk but I will not talk because I have decided not to talk. It’s my decision. The only thing I will say to you is that by the grace of God, in a few months’ time, I would have completed my mandate from God and man to lead the Christians in Nigeria. By the grace of God, I want to also believe that CAN will still be there as an organisation that has five blocks, five groups of Christians and it will continue from there. I think I have done my best and played my part and I’m sure others will come and take it from there. I pray for them that they will do better than I did in Jesus name. What we must do is what many people have said and have continued to say. First of all, we must move closer to God because one’s knowledge of God affects one’s mentality; it affects one’s relationship with others. Some people may not understand this but there’s a difference between being religious and being close to God. One can be very religious and yet far away from God. Nigeria is a very religious country but are we really close to God? I think it’s a question we need to answer as individuals and collectively as a people.
If we are not, then the foundation is not very good. We need to be close to God. To me, that’s the number one thing. If we are close to God, then we have the most important ingredient that will propel us for tomorrow. If we are close to God then it sharpens our minds and capacity to handle things that will come up tomorrow. I was saying in the church, ‘I went to Israel, and I met a Jew. We were in a bus together. I asked him a question thus: ‘God said I will take you to a land flowing with milk and honey. I’ve come to Israel several times and I’ve found out that this land is a desert. Where is the milk and honey?’ And he said to me, ‘it is here’ (pointing to his head). He said the milk and honey that God was talking about was not necessarily the land. He (GOD) was saying that there was a location where I would want you to settle down and I will use your mind to change the location.
My point is, what will make Nigeria manifest its greatness is in our heads because wealth is not money but mental capacity. God did not make any human being without giving them the capacity to think and create. Look at what they (the Israelites) have done with a desert; they turned a desert to a blossoming land. Most of the flowers that are supplied around the world today come from Israel. A lot of agricultural products today come from Israel. These do not exclude technology and computer. If all these can happen from a desert, imagine what will happen from a land that is this fertile.
Kidnapping is now a common thing even in the church. What does this development portend for Nigeria?
It is unfortunate that we are having this kind of problem because most places of religious gathering, particularly of the Christian faith, are seemingly reducing their faith to commercials. So many people think they have money and most of them live a flamboyant lifestyle. As such, the kidnappers mistake them for money men but there is nothing there. The kidnappers would be kept at bay if they stopped preaching prosperity and allowing dirty money to go into the church coffers. I also think the church is losing its moral values. The values are disappearing gradually. We should preach values and not materialism. I think the churches themselves should look inwards and correct the poor impression they are giving people outside that there is money in the church, whereas there is none.
Do you believe certain ills in the church attract this worldly conduct?
Where is the place of business in the church? I think the problem we have in the church is that a lot of these pastors are not “men of God” as they were not called. They are mercenaries, commercially minded people. The duty of the church is to preach morality not materialism and because Nigerians are very gullible; they are easy victims of deceit. They fall prey to some of these pastors or prophets of doom. The way they live gives a wrong impression of what should be in a church of God. There should be no room for material possessions. I am not saying a man of God should not live a life of comfort but it should be a life of good comfort.
How would you describe your relationship with former President Goodluck Jonathan?
I’m often shocked to read on the pages of newspapers negative reports about him (Jonathan). Goodluck Jonathan is my son and he is still my son. He meant well for the nation and he did his best, but if critics say he was bad; I don’t know the parameter they measured that with. It is unfortunate that Nigeria’s governance speaks different processes, especially those termed to have failed. Nigerians see that as an avenue to pour out their anger, insults and others. Goodluck Jonathan did his best to fix Nigeria but sabotage swung into action to ensure he did not succeed. It is laughable to read so many negative and unfounded stories about him. However, he had played his role as President and the rest is history. Our relationship is still cordial and as a leader of a church, I’m the father of all.
What is your take on the Kaduna State bill against public preaching?
Governor Nasir el-Rufai has seemingly taken the wrong step. He should call a meeting of all the stakeholders in that state with respect to religious activities before rushing to the state Assembly for any bill. Be that as it may, we have to be very careful if there is any bill intended to wear religious colouration. When Sharia was introduced into this country we were lucky to have a Christian President, Chief Olusegun Obasanjo, who tamed it. Nigeria would have been engulfed by the conflagration. Sharia would have been misunderstood. There are already enough laws in the statue book that take care of what Governor El-Rufai has in mind. I have no objection if he wants to curb noise pollution in the name of religion. I quite agree if this is the basis. But in a situation where it is meant to tackle extremism, libel, sedition, incitement and more, there are enough laws in our statute book for this. Doing otherwise is not good for him. I have tremendous respect for him for he was the person bold enough to say that there should be no more street begging. Yes, that was a sensible thing because even in the Islamic countries such is not allowed.
What about President Muhammadu Buhari?
I thank God for all that has happened. Nigeria is at present undergoing processes with a view to improving the economy and wellbeing. I am glad with the slogan ‘change’, but we must pray hard for the manifestation of the change. President Buhari has the integrity of no food for lazy persons. It is okay but we must make moves for consistent prayers for him to succeed, Nigeria is our noble country, we must salvage it together consistently with prayers. Buhari’s reformation should be holistic and not targeted at particular persons or sectors. It is a welcome development to fix Nigeria as a noble country. Buhari’s polices may be too hard for Nigerians but with time they (the policies) will pave way for true democracy, Buhari should keep Nigerians abreast with the economic reform policies and ensure they are well structured.
What is your opinion on the current fuel scarcity?
It is a phase and it will fizzle out in no distant time. I want to charge the petroleum saboteurs to steer clear off their illicit activities and ensure that fuel crisis is a permanent thing of the past. Nigeria desires the best as a nation and all hands must be on deck for prayers for all to overcome.
Are religious groups doing enough at this critical period?
God is the only way to solving problems. Human beings are only being used by God, therefore, the religious groups are doing their best to bring to this country hope that peace will continue to reign. Except there are contrary views I don’t know about, I know that God will not abandon this country Nigeria. He will ensure evils do not exist to create problems. In a few months away from now, we will be celebrating the 56th anniversary of our independence from the British colonialists. In fact, we observed the last anniversary with mixed feelings but we are grateful to God for keeping us as one entity despite the whole lot of problems that had plagued our country Nigeria. I know Nigeria will attain a leading role in taking care of her well being. Like I said earlier, we must work together. Today, many nations exhibit high talent for digital technology but our own country, Nigeria is seemingly burdened with the relics of an improvident past, a confused present and an uncertain future languidly crawling behind, while leaders of many nations have attained very high level of success in the provision of sound and functional education, and social infrastructure for their citizenry, our own political leaders whose only opinions and views cut ice in the affairs of our nations could not see any reason good enough for schools being adequately funded for optimal result. Neither do they consider other Nigerians worthy enough to enjoy a better life.
In the lexicon of this privileged few who manage our collective patrimony, what’s sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander. That is why they do not feel awkward about the fact that they and their loved ones protected by God should express their thanks to God. I have seen that the poor masses are left at the mercies of armed robbers, kidnappers and terrorists but God will intervene.
…says the spirit of Judas Looms large in the church
THE National President of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN), Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor, believes ‘something is so wrong’ with Christianity in Nigeria, saying followers of the faith must get it right like Islam.
“The only thing that will save the Church is to build an institution; not just CAN but the President of CAN must also become an institution”, he says, Oritsejafor also speaks on his travails as CAN leader.
Ayo oritsejafor
Oritsejafor spoke at the 28th annual convention of Word of Life Bible Church, known as Jubilee Word Festival, where the church leadership empowered 21 persons from different parts of northern Nigeria, especially the North-East, where Boko Harm is campaigning to establish on Islamic caliphate.
The beneficiaries were drawn from Adamawa, Benue, Borno, Jigawa, Kaduna, Kebbi, Kwara, Nasarawa, Niger, Plateau and Taraba states.
Enumerating the effects of poverty, Oritsejafor urged well-meaning Nigerians to reach out to displaced fellow country men and women as a result of the activities of Boko Harm and herdsmen.
According to the CAN President, despite the insecurity in different parts of Nigeria, there is still an opportunity for this nation to be one of the greatest nations of the world if the citizens can come together to iron out their differences and forge ahead in unity.
“We need to reconcile ourselves to ourselves. We need to come back together. We need to know that we have only one country. We need to forgive and value each other. We need to integrate ourselves into this one country where everybody is important. I think it is important, right now that we do that to ourselves and I can tell you that such will bring out of us the nationalistic spirit needed for national development,” he stated.
“Not until we feel we are one in this country…some people live in Nigeria but do not believe in this country. So we need to do something; not by force but through love, sitting down and talking. We need to sit down by inclusiveness, by extending to everyone a chance to live properly in this great country. I believe in one Nigeria and, above all, I believe this country can be great again.”
‘The Church too divided’
Asked about his expectations from the Nigerian Church, he stated: “My first and major expectation from the Nigerian Church is unity, oneness. The Church is too divided, it’s a major problem, but, to me, it is a major expectation that God will do something. It’s not a new problem, it’s a problem that has been there, and, actually, I will tell you my impressions about it. It has troubled me so much. If you look at Church history, you will see exactly what I am saying. Take a look at what happened in Turkey which used to be Constantinople; you have the Ottoman Empire next to it that eventually took it over. When you say Paul of Tarsus; where is Tarsus? In Turkey. The seven churches recorded in the book of Revelation were in Turkey; but, today, the Christian population in Turkey is 0.000. It’s almost nothing, it’s hard for the mind to comprehend.
Many years ago, the greatest church building, probably the greatest and most beautiful building in the world, was the church building in Constantinople and that was the first place the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire went to. What caused it, how did it happen, why did Christianity lose out there? It is this disunity. There was a big problem between the Western Church and the Eastern Church. I don’t even want to tell you what the problems were; it’s so shameful! I don’t want to be quoted because the things don’t make sense.
Then go to a place like Egypt, a fully Christian nation for over 1,000 years. In fact, the city of Alexandria in Egypt was the centre of Biblical studies for many years. Over 1,000 years of Christianity before Islam conquered it, the same problem among Christians opened the door. They crossed from there into Sudan which was also totally Christians, and, from there, to Libya; the same story and now this is Nigeria. And I started asking myself some questions; a few weeks ago, the Lord began to open my eyes to something. If you read the Old Testament, you will discover that God said that someone will betray Jesus, but He never mentioned a name. Judas became that someone. In other words, what God was saying was that anyone who was available, the devil will use him and, when you study the book of Luke, the Bible says, ‘And Satan entered him.’
‘Judas spirit in the Church’
“What I am telling you is that the spirit that entered Judas made him to commit suicide eventually, but the spirit didn’t die. You know spirits don’t die. That spirit is still in the Church and that is the problem of the Church. We betray each other; we compete with each other, we will do anything to destroy each other; we are so individualistic in our thinking. Then there are those who take it a little bit higher, they are denominational in their thinking, sectionalism; it is this same spirit of Judas that has torn the Church apart to the point where a pastor and his secretary will have a misunderstanding and the secretary will call a press conference.
“We are excited washing our dirty linens in the public. You see, if you offend me, I feel the best way is to call a press conference; but in the meantime, every press conference you call is pulling down the Church; not one person, the whole Church. But we don’t see it, we don’t get it. And yet there are three important things in the scripture that the Church seems to neglect. Number 1, you can check the scripture out, Jesus said if your brother offends you, go to him. The Bible doesn’t say call a press conference. If he doesn’t listen, Jesus said take two more people with you and go to him. Again, he didn’t recommend a press conference. He said if he still didn’t listen, bring him to the church and let the church deal with him. That was Jesus’ recommendation.
“If you continue to read, you will find where Apostle Paul asked: “Is there no wise man among you?” Why should you take yourselves to the courts of the world? And, today, for example, I have a case in Kano and another in Kaduna. The one in Kaduna was thrown out by a Muslim judge. It’s not because I did anything. It’s just this CAN President thing and I was taken to court by the Chairman of the state CAN. Can you imagine? And when the Muslim judge saw it, he said he couldn’t handle the case, asking, ‘What is wrong with you people?’ He kept adjourning the case until, finally, we were able to work it out. There is one right now in Abuja by a Christian who took CAN, myself and one or two other persons to court.
‘How to save the Church’
“You just wonder, you see…do you know, today, as I speak, the case is still on. The Muslims got it right, they built an institution and the institution is called ‘Sultan of Sokoto’. Sultan of Sokoto is not a person, it is an institution. The only thing that will save the Church in Nigeria is to build an institution; not just CAN but the President of CAN must become an institution. Now, I don’t say this because of me, because I only have one year left and I am done. But someone will take over from me; he shouldn’t be treated the way I have been treated because, at the end of the day, it is the whole Church that loses. Do you know that, today, if you take a paid (critical) advert to a newspaper with the Sultan’s name on it, they will reject it? But if you take a (critical) advert to a newspaper and my name is on it, they will jump at it. In fact, some people can pay for it and put it on the front page and 90 per cent of Nigerian newspapers are owned by Christians. Something is wrong. Something is so wrong. This is what is going on.
“So my expectation is how we are going to solve this problem and what must happen; first of all is to have people because not everyone will get it at the same time. Some people will begin to see the big picture because, as at now, in my own opinion, 80 per cent of the Church only see a narrow picture of me or my denomination and that is not going to work for the Church. The second thing is to build this institution, the office of the President of CAN must be revered, respected, in fact, mystified if you want; lifted up there, made to be something that you don’t just touch, because when that happens, the Church will have a rallying point. When the Church has a rallying point, when there is an office, an institution that can say to the Church, ‘It is enough,’ and immediately it is actually enough; then we will start going forward.
“I was telling some people few days ago, ‘do you know that a local government Chairman can invite Church leaders across this country and say ‘I want to see you by 2.00 p.m. tomorrow’ and they will go: 1) for the recognition, and 2) for a little money’. I cannot do that. For example, I have the next CAN executive meeting next week or so, but I cannot guarantee that all the leaders will be there. Do you know there are those who will ask me; ‘Will you pay my hotel bill, will you pay my airfare?’ But like I said, if a local government Chairman says ‘come’, they will be there. Something is wrong. So, if we can first begin to see the big picture to raise this institution, respect it, honor it, and allow it to be the voice for the Church, believe me, the Church will be strong again and we will be able to withstand what is coming because something is coming but I don’t know what it is. I can’t explain it, but something is coming. So I have mixed my expectation with my frustration”.
Open doors
Oritsejafor noted that the theme for the Word of Life Bible Church convention, this year, ‘EPHPHATHA’, ‘Be Opened’, came to him in January, emphasising that the season we are going into now, God will begin to open doors that some people have given up on.
Also speaking on the significance of the Jubilee, described by many of the speakers, as coinciding with the Jewish Jubilee currently taking place in Jerusalem, the matriarch of Word of Life Bible Church, Pastor (Mrs.) Helen Oritsejafor, said the first thing is for Nigerians to realize that God remains God, no matter what we think or believe.
She also harped on the need for Nigerians to unite, arguing that it is the cardinal ingredient for the nation’s development at a time like this; adding: “This is the time to emphasize the things that bring us together and de-emphasize those that seem to separate us. Nigeria will be great and Nigerians will be great if we understand that God has made us as one and we must celebrate each other in unity and honesty in Christ Jesus.”
The lions den
In an interview with Sunday Vanguard, the CAN President spoke on the happiest and saddest moments of his life over the past 28 years of piloting the affairs of Word of Life Bible Church. “I think my saddest moment would be the day we started Word of Life, because it wasn’t something I was excited about. I didn’t want it. My spirit was low; I just wondered why, but it was like throwing me in a lions den. I was really troubled and didn’t sleep all through the night of Saturday into the Sunday that Word of Life started. I was really very troubled and sad, almost feeling very lonely. I almost felt like God forsook me,”Oritsajefor stated.
“There were too many questions I just couldn’t find anwsers to, maybe probably because I needed instant answers. Those who were there that day will tell you I wept openly. To me, that was my lowest point. From that low point, it just kept getting better and higher.
Doubts and predictions
“On the other hand, my happiest point would be when we dedicated this International Gospel Centre because it brought fulfillment and excitement and showed that God is actually faithful. It was a proof that God actually told me to do this. There were those who said I wouldn’t last three years. Others said probably seven years and all kinds of predictions. I don’t think I would like to get into all that but the word ‘fulfillment’ captures the whole picture. The building was a dream. I don’t dream very often but there was this night I slept and dreamt of a round building, huge. I didn’t hear any voice, I just saw a building and a lot of people.
“I woke up the next morning excited but troubled because, in my mind, yes, beautiful big building, but how do you actualize this kind of thing?; it was too crazy to think. Interestingly, about a week or two later, a gentleman, who used to be a member of this church—who is not an architect but an engineer—walked into my office. I cannot recollect what led to it, but I started narrating to him the dream I had of the building, that I saw a big round building and all that; I kept talking. He listened and didn’t say anything. He left me afterwards and, about two or three weeks later, he showed up with a full drawing of this whole thing and it was exactly what I saw.
“I didn’t give him details of what I saw. I just told him of a huge round building because I couldn’t describe all the details myself. I didn’t even know the young man well but he went and returned after three weeks with a full blown plan and had everything ready. And I said: ‘Goodness me, how did you come up with all this and how did you know what I saw?’ And he said that, as I was talking, everything just came to him. It had to be God because, like I said, he is not an architect but he got everything right and we took off from there and the next thing was: ‘Where is the money?”
Inviting the whole world
“I did a launching which was in a sense a flop…. I invited the whole world but the whole world didn’t show up. It was just members of Word of Life that were present, not even all members were present. I think some were frightened and didn’t show up that day. Some people made one or two pledges and, when I got home that day, I said to myself it was either this dream was not it or I got something wrong. But I encouraged myself after praying for a while and said ‘let us start this thing with the little offering that we had in the church’ and we started buying materials. But at a point, I got frightened because I had never seen such a thing before. I came here and saw the holes they were digging for pillars, it was too much, so I ran away and I didn’t come here for a long time.
The point is this; if you ask me how much we spent to complete the building, I don’t even know. I don’t know because there was never a time we had that kind of money kept somewhere. The reason is we never raised that kind of money to build after the launching that was flopped. It was just offerings and donation of building materials by certain individual members. So, you can see that the hand of God is in the whole thing. That’s why I said the dedication was the highest point. Dr. Morris Cerullo did the dedication. Look, when you think of the day Word of Life started, how low I was, then to now think of the dedication of this church and how high I was, it was just too exciting, too exciting, really fulfilling to the glory of God”.
*‘God used Indian friends to lift me up after I lost millions to a fraudster’
By Sam Eyoboka
PASTOR Helen Oritsejafor, fondly called Mama Helen Oritsejafor, is a co-pastor of the Word of Life Bible Church, Warri in Delta State. She hails from Ado Ekiti in Ekiti State and is married to Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor, the National President of the Christian Association of Nigeria, CAN.
Ayo oritsejafor
Apart from being a co-pastor of the Word of Life Bible Church, she is the Chairman, Board of Directors of Eagle Flight Micro FINANCE Bank Limited, Eagle Heights International Schools and the African Broadcasting Network, ABN. In this interview conducted before the presidential election, but after the women convention of the Word of Life Bible Church, known as Daughters of Sarah Convention, the mother of three bared her mind on several national issues. Excerpts…
What triggered your salvation and how did you get to this stage?
It’s quite interesting because every time I think of it, it tickles me because, first and foremost, my Anglican background must have played a very big role in this. My father actually built an Anglican church in our estate and it was mandatory for us to go to church in those days, but that didn’t bring the change, besides the fact that I had a moral background and upbringing. There was this thirst in me to know God more.
My Bible and my big cross then were always in my bag. I will never forget a particular day I went to the bank and I needed to meet with the bank manager. Whilst I was waiting, the bank manager’s secretary engaged me and asked if I had given my life to Christ. I told her yes and I brought out my Bible and my big cross. She started laughing. So I asked what she was laughing at and she said she was not talking about my religion; instead she wanted to know if I had given my life to Christ.
She spoke to me about the need to do so and advised that I attend a particular church on Sunday. I didn’t go. When I showed up again the following week at the office, she looked at me and asked if I attended the service and I said yes. So she looked into my eyes and said I just lied. I was shocked because I couldn’t believe she would be that bold to say that to me.
Right there, I made up my mind that I was going to attend the next service which I did. And that day, as the service was going on, it was as though the man of God was speaking about my life. I lost my mother when I was four. Growing up, even though I was in a home of affluence, the fact that my mum was not there created a big vacuum for me and my siblings.
Having to now groom yourself to be very independent with the belief that there isn’t anything you can’t achieve, that has always been my resolve. I was very radical in that aspect. I could just throw myself into a place and believe that all I need to do is to pray and everything will start turning.
For someone now to start preaching and saying you’ve always believed you could do everything by yourself, you need Christ. Those were the things that really pushed me out and I was really touched by the experience because I just felt I was just tired of struggling and needed to give myself totally to the Almighty God, which I did.
Recently, you started the Professionals Entrepreneurs’ Businessmen Fellowship. What informed the formation of PEB and what it is all about?
PEB Fellowship actually is an idea that came to Papa and I. We sat down one day and looked at what had been going on in our environment, and found that apart from the fact that Christians believe that the only thing they need to do to bring a change into their lives, they also need to fast and pray to make things work.
So we had been discussing on how to take our children to the next level of life. Apart from preaching the gospel to them and showing them how to go to heaven, we also need to give them the impetus; what is going to make them shine here on earth. It is not going to address the professionals only, the initiative is intended to address expatriates, professionals, business men and women; and, of course, we also believe that the world in which we live in is not created for only unbelievers.
Unbelievers are not supposed to be the ones in charge of wealth. Christians are supposed to be in charge of wealth. We are supposed to be the ones to teach unbelievers HOW TO MAKE MONEY, but, unfortunately, we haven’t been active in that area. So we want to be able to teach our children how they can to distinguish themselves in whatever field they might find themselves. And it’s not just in Word of Life; it cuts across, meeting the needs of the community and, of course, in Nigeria as a whole.
Those who have attended the PEB Fellowship will attest to the fact that the sessions are unbelievable and unprecedented. And if we can work on the information, no doubt we will start seeing Christian multi-billionaires who, through that, can change their world positively still remain in faith. So the whole essence is to build a total man outside the spiritual aspect of impartation and make them very functional and prosper in their endeavors as the case may be.
In your position as President of Daughters of Sarah Fellowship, how do you rate the fellowship and its annual conventions?
Daughters of Sarah Fellowship is a body of women from Word of Life Bible Church, of 30 years and above, married and unmarried. The essence is to expose them to spiritual emancipation, financial, material, marital emancipation. One thing we’ve realized also is that women are the most marginalized sex, not just in Africa but around the world. It’s worse in Africa.
We know that in the western world, there has been some level of improvement because now we are beginning to see women heading countries. I’m hoping that, one day, we will be able to produce a woman as the President of Nigeria. There’s this uniqueness in a woman, because a woman is actually a man with a womb and that is the added value of a woman.
A woman can think through things if she is under pressure, you can see that she can easily balance out things. Those are some of the attributes that God has deposited in a woman and, if she is allowed to function in her aunction, not only would she be able to bring transformation to her immediate environment but the community and beyond.
A fellowship like this is to allow our women fulfill destiny in every area of life without having to be timid and feeling low with less esteem, but given a platform to function and to bring out the best in them. The beauty of this fellowship also is that it does not only encourage women in all aspects of life, but even the male folks as well.
The fellowship does not allow the women alone to attend the programme, for instance, like the just concluded convention, but it’s also for everyone because we do not only teach you on how to make your homework. Don’t forget, if your home is strong, automatically, every aspect of your life would be. Men were in attendance as well as children. I believe that this year’s convention was mind blowing because, every year, God has always tailored it to address something in our lives and it has always been incredible.
The theme was ‘Great Grace to Arise’. Nigeria is going through a lot of things right now. In the political atmosphere, Christians are being battered everyday; so many things are happening. Whether we want to agree or not, the Boko Haram insurgency happening in the North, Christians are the ones paying the higher price apart from the few Muslims who are also affected.
If you look at the economic situation of the world, it seems a little bit on the difficult side because of the sheer introduction of oil in the market that has more or less put the United States of America in a place where they now determine the consumption pattern.
Unfortunately, the developing nations have never been able to diversify their economies to a level where they can conveniently run their affairs without having to depend on revenue that comes from the US. Looking at all that, and then, of course, the personal struggles that we all have, God is saying that at this time, He is going to multiply His grace for us to be able to rise out of our ashes, out of our dungeon, out of our problems, out of things that seem to be affecting us, things that put us in a very bad state in life. What the programme did was to give us another chance.
You have also incorporated an international trade fair into the convention. What do you think is the role of the Church in business and what is your vision about women empowerment?
When we started, we had a situation where a major crisis was here in Warri, Delta State. It was an inter-tribal war that ravaged this place to a point where a lot of businesses either closed down or relocated to different parts of the country. What that tells you is that youths would be on the streets looking for jobs. Some tribes suddenly felt that they were no longer one anymore and they started killing each other unfortunately, and that put Warri and environs in a terrible state.
We created and looked for an avenue where we can champion business through Athens Trade Fair whereby people can advertise what they do and people will get to know about it. We also looked for another avenue where we brought some of the tribal leaders to the trade fair opening and create an atmosphere where they can now start interacting.
To God be the glory, we were able to successfully do that. Before we could say jack, businesses started springing up in Warri. People were now beginning to think it is still possible. People from the eastern part of Nigeria were now coming to Warri to partake in the trade fair and through that people started having all sorts of things to make their lives beautiful.
I believe that Christianity has a role to play in business. God is a businessman. A lot of time Christians don’t even know that business started from the kingdom of God. When God said “let us make man in our image” and He created the man and animals and so on for the use of human beings, He said to man: “multiply and have dominion”.
How do you multiply without engaging in business? Multiplication does not come without a trade. There has to be an exchange and that’s all what business is all about. Christianity has a big role to play in business. The only thing here is that we also know that in order to succeed, we need God and that is the beauty of Christianity. What this convention has been able to do is not only to bring in peace but to also trigger business opportunities in our community and to also open up people’s minds to various opportunities.
Day after day, people have been testifying of how God has used you to transform lives, education, family, marriages and so on. How do you assess yourself and your contribution towards the kingdom of God? Will you say you have achieved your goal?
I haven’t even started. I quite appreciate people’s perception concerning me, but, sincerely speaking, I don’t think I’m there yet. I believe more still needs to be done. How do you go to a crusade ground and you are having thousands of people in need and you are only able to make impact on a few lives? You need more to be able to do that. Honestly, my heart’s desire is to be able to enter into a place one day and just pick on people who have been considered as nothing, and God using me to take them to a higher ground. This is just the beginning of greater things to come.
All great people around the world face challenges. People like you have faced so many challenges as well. Can you tell us some of them and how you overcame such challenges?
There is always a story behind every glory. Anyone who tells you he just woke up one day and suddenly became great is a liar. It doesn’t happen. Even to manage success is also a big problem as well because you have to continue to manage. Someone can just say ‘let God bless me with a million naira and it will make me a millionaire’. By the time God puts one million naira in your hands, if you don’t utilize it properly, you will be back to becoming a thousand-naire. Life itself is a race.
The very first experience has to be many years ago when I was duped. It was supposed to be a business transaction. Somebody approached me and said he had cashew nuts and apparently Germany had written him wanting him to supply cashew but needed FINANCE. I took him to my bank and released funds to him. He told me that, in one week, the cashew nuts would arrive, that he had already gotten a warehouse and he would bring the cashew nuts to the warehouse.
To my amazement, the one week came and went, nothing like the trailer load of cashew nuts. I called again and they said it’s coming that very day. I went to stay by the road side and parked my car waiting for the trailer load. So every time a trailer approached my direction, I would say this must be my cashew nuts coming, but then it would pass. The money I’m talking about was into millions. This was about 27 years ago. It was very devastating because what I had left in my account then, was nothing. To cut the story short, I lost the money. The cashew nuts never came.
The question then was how was I going to start all over again? So I went to God, where and how am I going to start? After I was done with praying, I remembered the experience of David. The Bible says David encouraged himself. So I encouraged myself. I started driving myself because I couldn’t pay my driver’s salary. My staff were still coming to the office and we were still believing God for a miracle. An Indian friend of mine just came by with his wife to my office.
I had not seen them for two years. She asked me what had been going on and I explained to her. Then she said her husband brought in what they called mini-steppers for exercises. I asked her how much was the mini-stepper, and she said N7,000. I said I was interested. ‘Let me be your representative and try to sell the mini-steppers.’ I was not in that kind of business before. I bought two mini-steppers from them and put same in my boot, combing everywhere looking for buyers.
This was me that was signing cheques of millions that was now looking for N7,000 worth of mini-steppers. It would shock you to know that that was how I became lifted again. I thank God today for that experience, and that’s why I’m never afraid to start anything afresh. It has never been a challenge to me.
Whenever things happen, I just look at it as if this is another way of making me better. When I sit back here and think about how many companies by the grace of God I have started afresh and sustained over the years, that experience came to bear from that experience I had 27 years ago when I faced with a ridiculous situation where I happened to start all over again.
Challenges come in life but you must never give up and you must never despise your humble beginning. Most times, people have difficulties embracing their humble beginning and that’s why they are unable to sustain what they come across. People want to just start big. People also need to know as well that they need God because I actually got my courage from Jehovah God who empowered me.
The money was gone but the real me was still there. Believe me, when you say I can’t do it, that’s when I want to do it to tell you it is possible. You must never give up, and then learn how to manage wealth. I was getting N500 on top of every N7,000 worth of mini-stepper. Before I knew it, my N500 became half a million, my half a million became a million and then I was able to push myself back into doing big businesses.
What happened to the dupe?
Unfortunately, nothing happened to the fellow in the sense that, initially, the matter was reported to the police. But on the long run, I just was not ready to waste my time chasing shadows. So I decided to put back my strength into building back myself. Meanwhile, about two years ago, I learnt that the person left Nigeria with his family for the U.S and then he came back to Nigeria, and he’s dead now. I didn’t have to do anything to him. I’m not happy saying it, but that is what happened.
How do you manage being a preacher, a mother, a wife, an entrepreneur, a role model?
I believe it is God. God has given me the grace to be able to function. I married a man of integrity, a man who would do anything and everything to make sure that another man becomes somebody in life. My husband has been a major encouragement to me. But, essentially, God has been awesome.
God has multiplied His grace unto me by giving me the wisdom to know when to be at African Broadcasting Network, when to make myself available at the bank as the chairman, how to make myself available as Chairman, Board of Trustees of Eagle Heights Schools, how to make myself available as the Director of Eagle Medical, how to make myself available in our Bureau de Change, how to chip in a word in Eagle Secure Win which is an insurance company, how to make myself available as a mother in the house to my children; because, at the end of the day, if you are successful out there and a failure at home, you are a number one failure.
For one thing, I do not joke with my husband. There was a day we all went on vacation and, before anything else, I’d always make sure daddy is well taken care of, he’s happy before I will attend to the children. One day, one of my daughters said to me, ‘we know we have to take care of daddy before anything else, right?’ I said yes we have to make sure daddy is happy because if daddy is happy, we are all going to be happy. These are some of the things that are very important.
I do not joke with him. What he eats is what he eats. My husband is the kind of person that does not eat overnight food. Every meal has to be fresh. I’ve known him for that so that I make sure he eats fresh. And also my children, I make sure I take care of them because it is not money that is going to make them, it is the love and care.
Two days ago, daddy was at home, and presently, the children are in their exams period. Early morning before they leave, I must do revision with them; so I’m already up by 5:30 am doing revision with them. Those are the ways you show to your children you care. Those are the things they are going to remember later in future.
They are not going to remember the expensive wristwatch you put on their wrists, it is how much you care about who they are that will speak for you tomorrow. These bring me to time management; the ability to manage your time effectively is very important.
There is this controversy that CAN, led by your husband, received, first, N6 billion and later, N7 billion, from the Presidency to campaign for GEJ’s re-election. What was your initial reaction?
It’s quite laughable. The challenge we have in this country is that we are not people of thinkers, and it’s quite unfortunate. And that’s the reason some of these people keep playing on our intelligence. If we are people of thinkers, it would be very difficult for them to do so. A thing like that never happened to start with. It’s what propelled it that I think I will like to address.
The whole essence was to create division amongst Christians. Strike the shepherd and the sheep will scatter. Suddenly, Christians are now the ones that everyone believes that in order for them to win an election, they must have our support, for the first time in the history of our nation; instead of people to play it right and bring down their manifesto.
When they are unable to do that, what they now chose to do is to discredit the leadership hoping to be able to leverage through that by securing a portion of our Christians to be in support of what they are trying to do, which is extremely sad because what that tells me is that they must be the ones doing it and they also think that others will have to do same as well.
And since they could not get the leadership of Christians, the question will be who tried to bribe the leadership of CAN to sway their votes two years ago and how much was it they offered the leadership of CAN? And at the end of the day, the leadership of CAN stood up and walked away from such the meeting because the question then was all we just needed you to do is to de-marry this man and we will give you this and this man walked out of the meeting.
And that’s why since then they have been going after him because they believe he is a man that cannot be bribed. He is a man that is very passionate about everything he is doing. And because they know that, they are doing their very best to see how they can malign him and give him a bad name. They’ve done everything to set him up.
I thank God no one has been able to come out and say that he was caught in the house of XYZ. Everything you see is to come up with different stories to give him a bad name. But it’s too late now. The reason I say it’s too late now is because we have Nigerians who are smart enough to read between the lines knowing fully well that something is evidently wrong here.
The question is, are you going to vote someone to power who has done everything to rubbish your faith and to rubbish what you believe by going under the leadership to cast aspersion on it, or are you going to support someone who is upholding your tenets? It’s an easy question.
It’s just like someone telling you that your parents are bad but the children are good. The same yardstick used in caning your parents will be used in caning you too. If you are a true child of those parents, you will know that whosever can wag his hands on your parents can also do same to you and you will never pay attention.
David said to Goliath, how dare you defy the king of the Jews?’ I want Christians to know that their destiny; let us not sell our birthright because of whatever reason. Let us follow our spirit. It is my prayer that we will allow reasoning to come to bear in this matter.
Can you tell us who attempted to bribe some people two years ago?
I’m not going to talk about the governor who unfortunately is very desperate right now. He’s desperate because a man who thought he was going to end up being a vice president is no way in the same politics where he started off as a governor. The initial offer dangled at him that made him to betray and leave a party for another was because he was to become the vice president should this party win.
Unfortunately, he’s no longer in the race and he has spent all of his life in it, so obviously he has to continue to gain relevance in that position. The pastor collaborating with him; I feel for him because he is a pastor that my husband has helped so much. There is nothing my husband has not done for him. But we had a big challenge with him for which we had to keep our distance.
It was at that point in time that my husband felt he was no longer going to have anything to do with him. I just see a man who feels that this is a time I can get back at this man. He’s been coming to beg. I’m quite aware that he has been looking for different ways to come and apologise for what he did.
From what I heard again, I hear he’s putting it on somebody else which I’m not going to mention the name. But the fact remains, Jonathan does not need to bribe Christians to vote for him. He’s a part of us. What we are talking about here has to do with Christians in Nigeria. I’ve not heard anyone trying to give us that assurance that we are safe in this country. What I have seen is someone trying as much as possible to label us by creating division, not giving us assurance that we are safe. No one has been able to say it with his mouth.
What the leadership of Christians is saying is; are we safe? Will Nigeria become an Islamic country if we bring you in? Because I keep seeing adverts from a part of the West saying when you become the President of Nigeria, we believe you will introduce Sharia. They claim we have one million Muslims in the West and yet they don’t allow them to practice their religion.
Now we are saying it’s not about money here; we are not going to sell our birthrights. I want to secure a nation for myself, my generation and generations to come. And we are asking, are you going to give us that leverage to continue to practice our religion or are you going to force another religion on us? And no one has been able to address that. Instead of addressing the real thing, they are casting aspersion because it’s more or less like divide and rule.
I still have a fresh memory of what happened many years ago when these same people were in power and I couldn’t wear trousers, I couldn’t wear my scarf, I couldn’t leave my hair uncovered. Nigerians forget easily. When these people were in power, I can never forget, my stepmother was to go to the market to buy something, she didn’t have her head covered, they had to smuggle her inside a store and look for a scarf for her because she was almost going to be arrested for not covering her head. A son or a daughter who decides to align with the enemies of his parents is a bastard, and I’m not one.
The Christian Association of Nigeria has denied the allegation that its leaders were offered N7bn by the Presidency to campaign for President Goodluck Jonathan’s re-election.
The association also called on security agencies to investigate the Voice of Northern Christian Movement and its Executive Director, Mr. Musa Dikwa, for making the allegation.
The association also linked the allegation to those using different Christian organisations to perpetrate fraud.
In a statement issued on Friday in Abuja by the General Secretary of CAN, Dr. Musa Asake, the association said the All Progressives Congress presidential candidate, Gen. Muhammadu Buhari (retd), had fallen into wrong hands, “because his endorsement for the March 28 general election by Northern Christian Leaders Eagle-Eye Forum led by one Aminchi Habu was fraudulent.”
The statement read, “We are therefore calling on security agencies to investigate the activities of the Voice of Northern Christian Movement and Musa Dikwa himself to unravel the N7bn mystery which is intended by their sponsors to throw the country into serious crisis.
“For the avoidance of doubt, CAN has no knowledge of any N7bn transaction as alleged by Musa Dikwa who claims to be the Executive Director of a non-existent group, Voice of Northern Christian Movement.
“CAN is not a political party, let alone getting involved in partisan politics. Christians who are members of CAN belong to different political parties. It is therefore surprising to hear that CAN is campaigning for one candidate.
“Revered men of God including the CAN President, Pastors Ayo Oritsejafor; Bishop David Oyedepo of Winners Chapel and Pastor Bosun Emmanuel (Secretary-General of National Christian Elders Forum) are too upright to be linked with any such deal.”
The Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) on Saturday condemned in strong terms the bombing that rocked Kano State, where scores were killed in a mosque during Juma’at prayers on Friday.
Ayo oritsejafor
In a statement, CAN President, Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor, said “Recently, an interfaith meeting that had representations from the hierarchy of both faith in attendance emphasised the need for dialogue, mutual relations, cooperation and unity in the renewed fight against insurgency in the country.
“The meeting made far reaching decisions that could be important in finding lasting peace to our country and that in itself was supposed to be a step towards the much anticipated peace and security in the country. It was therefore unfortunate that while some Nigerians were making efforts towards entrenching peace, others were indulging in drawing the road map to further destruction in our country”, he added.
Oritsejafor said “the entire Christian community in Nigeria received the news of the latest in the series of bomb explosions, this time around at the mosque near the emir’s palace in Kano, with shock and disbelief. This is most unfortunate given the number of people that lost their lives in their bid to offer prayers to their Almighty in the usual Friday worship at the mosque.
“On behalf of the entire Christians community under the auspices of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN), I wish to commiserate with the families of the victims especially those who lost their lives in the attack.
“I strongly condemn this particular attack because it is the greatest evil both to a fellow human being and to God almighty, it is an act that must be denounced by all, Christians and Moslems for no God commissions the killing of a fellow being.”
The CAN president appealed “to all Nigerians especially residents of the areas most prone to the attacks not to give in or succumb to the antics of the insurgents; this is the time to remain fearless in the face of terror’.
“We cannot continue to allow the terrorists to continue to intimidate us in our land because we have no other place to call our own, we must cooperate with relevant authorities in addition to being extra vigilant, to defeat this terror, they are human beings and can be defeated, but we have to be united. Nigerians must be united both in prayers and in other practical steps, to defeat terror.”
He said “I want to use this medium to re emphasis the need for all faithful, especially during their hours of worship to be watchful to forestall any further attack on their places of worship, this is a clarion call. I urge security agencies not to relent in their efforts but to work harder and to understand that our prayers remain with them day and night.”
He added that the “attack on the people of Kano is an attack on all Nigerians and must be addressed as such. This is the time for all to rise up and act, may God help us all as we make these strong efforts at curbing terrorism from our land and may the souls of all those who lost their lives in the attacks, rest in peace.”
•Explains why the Sultan, himself, others have not met over killings
By Sam Eyoboka
National President of the Christian Association of Nigeria, CAN, Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor, on Monday, celebrated his birthday by giving out cheques of N50,000 each to about 30 disabled individuals from different parts of Delta State. In this interview, he laments that for two years now, Nigeria Inter-religious Council, NIREC, has not seen the need to meet despite the growing menace of insurgency in parts of the country. When asked whether constant attacks on his person will deter him from speaking his mind, his answer was: “God forbid. It cannot!” Excerpts…
Ayo oritsejafor
What’s your birthday wish for Nigeria?
My birthday wish for Nigeria is that we will have a nation where everyone is equal; not just by national anthem, not just in words, but in deeds. That Nigeria will be a nation where people are not judged by tribe or by religion, but purely on the quality of their character, their person. My wish is to have a nation where anybody can go from Sokoto to Calabar and be accepted as a Nigerian. I don’t have to change my religion to live in a certain part of the country.
To mark your birthday, you gave out cheques to disabled people in Warri. What inspired it?
That is my life. The major thing that gives me joy in life is to give joy to other people. When I have opportunity to do that, I jump at it because it does something to me. I feel fulfilled. Yes, I’m a Christian, I’m spiritual, but I feel like a human being when I touch other people. It reminds me of my own humanity. It reminds me that if not for God, I will not be who I am; I will not be where I am today. You saw a woman giving testimony and then she said she had stopped doing business. Whatever stopped her from business, obviously stopped her from a livelihood. It just occurred to me there, ‘why don’t you just help her?’ She is healed, she is happy, but why not just take it a step further and help her to have a livelihood? And you could see her reaction.
That gives me fulfilment. December 26th is an incredible day for me here in Warri. I did not fully understand the word Boxing Day. I thought it was a feast thing, but then I began to understand that it is a day where many things are packaged; it’s a day of boxing things to give to people. So we do that here every December 26th. We give out cars, tricycles. That’s my joy. I’m a pastor. How much do I have? What can I do? Very little. But there are big businessmen, big companies; if we all try to do a little; everybody seems to be pushing it all to government but government can’t do everything. We can all do something. If I do a little something, and somebody else does, and everybody else does, you would be surprised how many people we can take out of poverty, how many people we can actually put on their feet so they can stand for themselves and fend for themselves. It will change this country.
The theme of the Jubilee: Talitha Cumi Arise 2015, does it have anything to do with next year elections? What’s the purpose of the theme?
I have a chair in my bedroom where I kneel to pray, but sometimes I sit if I’m praying for long, it’s like a rocking chair. I was sitting there meditating some five months ago. I can’t explain whether it was a trance, but I saw something like a screen, and written on it were the words: ‘TALITHA CUMI’. I happen to know that phrase because I’ve preached from it for years and I know that it means, `Damsel arise’. Underneath it I saw ‘ARISE 2015’. I know we are in 2014, why 2015? And the impression from God came to me that this year is preparatory towards 2015. Many things have been predicted about 2015, but the Lord impressed on me that many things that were dead will come alive. Hopeless situations, God will bring life into them. But also that Nigeria will arise. This nation will not go under. Nigeria will not be consumed. Nigeria will survive. It will be tough, but God says we will arise. So it’s very prophetic. It will definitely affect 2015. Call it the election, call it the aftermath of the election, call it whatever, but we will survive 2015. When Nigeria survives 2015, Nigeria will survive anything.
In view of the growing insurgency in parts of the country, why has NIREC not held any meeting to address the challenge?
I am as puzzled as you are because the Sultan and I are co-chairs of that organisation. We’ve not had a meeting now for almost two years and I’m puzzled because at least three times I have been informed of a meeting. We were supposed to meet in Gombe, only for the Secretary/coordinator, Prof. Ishaq Oloyede, to call to tell me it won’t hold, something happened, the governor was going somewhere or something. We fixed another date, he came up with something again.
We fixed a third date; they came up with something again why it could not hold. At a point, they even said there was no money. But early this year, I was told that there was some money now, so I said let’s do it. I talked with the two very important people involved. I suggested some dates; they said those dates were not good. So I’m still waiting for a date.
So it has nothing to do with me. I would love that we sit and talk. And we should be able to put these issues on the table and put timeline and agree on how we want to solve some of the problems facing Nigeria today. The traditional rulers, the religious leaders and political leaders; these three groups of people are very crucial to solving the problems facing Nigeria today.
Recently we heard that there was a ceasefire, later we were told that there was no ceasefire whatsoever……
I think I’m the wrong person to ask this because, first of all, I was not part of it. I don’t know anything about any ceasefire. You people should ask the relevant authorities to explain what they meant by ceasefire because I have no idea. What I know from what some very devout Muslims have told me is that when a Jihad starts, they don’t stop. The Jihad has to be completed. They either die or they achieve their goal. And the goal is to Islamize Nigeria. The real war is a war between the ideology of Sharia and the ideology of democracy. This is the war that is going on, and it is a worldwide war.
In Nigeria, we are ostriches; we put our heads in the sand. The western world is doing the same. They think as long as they are hiding in the sand, their problems will vanish. It’s not going anywhere. We have to face reality. The problem is real. Boko Haram will not negotiate with anybody. It’s a waste of time, energy and effort. They may end up talking with some people. But the problem is there are people who are still killing people and raising up their flags every day in different places. This is the reality on ground. Let’s stop the deception. Let’s stop the games. What is happening is real. People are being killed on a daily basis. So what ceasefire? There’s nothing like that anywhere. Shekau himself has been coming out almost every day, saying he doesn’t know anything about any deal. What deal is anybody going to strike with you that is going to stop this trend now that is going on?
Four-way solution
To me, there are three or four things that should be done to solve this problem of insurgency in Nigeria. I don’t know if we can ever totally eradicate it but I think we can reduce it drastically and isolate it.
Number one, Christians must not relent in their prayers. There has to be a divine input into what is happening. I have a feeling that God has helped us as a country; if not, the situation would be worse. So I want to plead with every well-meaning Nigerian to pray and pray harder.
Number two, the military must not relent. They must buckle up. I find it very difficult to criticise them and just pull them down to say they are useless and all that. I’m not telling you that I’m satisfied with what I see, but I find it difficult to do that. There are many reasons for that. Number one, these men are Nigerians like us. The difference is that they signed to become soldiers. They are married with wives and children. They are being killed also and their wives made widows and their children orphans. Why should I stand here now to say that they are useless? Having said that, there is a serious problem in our security agency, the problem of sabotage. I’ve been crying out about this for almost two years now, now a lot of people are talking about it. There is serious sabotage. It’s been there, it is just being magnified more and more. All our security agencies have this problem. There are people sympathetic to Boko Haram; some of them are even literally Boko Haram themselves. They leak information every day. It has become so bad that even reporters now get the stories.
The other day I read where a plane was to go and bomb a Boko Harm stronghold which could have stopped the recent invasion of Mubi; but as the plane was approaching its destination, the pilot got a call that he should return to base and he returned to base and these people did all they wanted to do, then they said he should go. So who made that call? Well, I don’t know if they’ve found out who made the call now. There was also an armoured car that was abandoned intentionally. When journalists report and say the soldiers ran away, they make it sound too simple. That’s not what really happened.
From the information I have sometimes, there are some commanders, not all, who will refuse to give the command. By military operations, soldiers cannot attack or respond without a command. Now, if the man who is to command them is not giving them command, and it’s obvious they are going to kill them, what do you expect them to do? So some of them drop their weapons and run. The picture has to be painted correctly. So that’s why some of them run away like that. Then there are some who the thing has been arranged, the people want to leave these weapons for the other people, so they are instructed to run. So they just run away and leave the weapons. It’s not really that they are afraid or can’t fight, but it’s still this sabotage issue. They have to work out the mechanisms by which they can fish out these people.
No matter the equipment you buy; you can buy all the modern equipment, it is getting to a point where the problem is not of poor equipment, the problem is that these saboteurs are using these equipment against government in the sense that they are handing them over to the insurgents. So these crazy people use these same equipment bought with Nigerian money to kill Nigerians. This is an issue that must be looked into seriously and addressed urgently.
Now the third thing; this is also very important, Nigerians, I beg us, let us stop this pretence. It is either we are totally ignorant, which I will be surprised of, or we are totally wicked and pretentious. We keep saying that this thing is not religious; it’s an insult to the sensibility of the average Nigerian. So when will we agree that this is a religious problem? When Nigeria is wiped out? When these people overrun the whole nation before we will know? I read in the papers today that an insurgent was walking around the streets of Mubi preaching. The report states that Boko Haram patrol captured towns preaching to residents. Are they going round begging for food? They are preaching. Preaching what? Don’t we know what they are preaching? They are preaching Sharia. Why are we pretending to be politically correct?
Doctrines
There are Muslims that are good friends and I associate with. I love them. I cannot hate Muslims. Why should I? My religion forbids me to do that, but I am begging these people that Muslim clerics, the notable ones from all the denominations of Islam, because Islam has denominations; all the Muslim clerics, all the Muslim political leaders, all the Muslim traditional rulers; these three groups should please for God’s sake and for the sake of Nigeria and for the sake of their own future and their own children and children’s children, they should come together.
Boko Haram will not listen to me. Boko Haram is an ideology. Please ask this question, what is the Salafi ideology in Islam? What is the Wahhabi doctrine in Islam? Are there doctrines like that? Yes. What are the doctrines that these terrorists around the world believe in? The doctrines they are teaching, are they not coming out of this Wahhabi and Salafi doctrines? Boko Haram is basically an ideology. To defeat an ideology, you need a superior ideology. Many of our Muslim brothers have come to say to those of us who don’t know much about Islam that these people are not Muslims.
Alright, but what are these people preaching? Is it not from the Quran? Now you say you have the real thing that this is not the real thing. Then match the real thing with the unreal thing or with the fake. In other words, they must engage these people. There are few Muslim clerics that these people respect till tomorrow. From what I hear, they like discussing the Quran, up to Shekau himself. They must find ways to engage them. I will never have access to them. They don’t even want to hear anything about me because I’m an infidel. But they would listen to some of these clerics. They must locate them, find ways to engage them probably through some of these their Quranic studies and scholars, they may be able to get to a point where they can discourage some of their activities and gradually get them to become sane again.
Local intelligence
Number four will be for these same religious clerics to help us go to the grassroots and start convincing the average person on the streets probably in the mosques, that they are Nigerians and Nigeria is a good place to belong to. Because certain things are being told to the people; they should start telling them that this is a great country to believe in. They should make them understand that Boko Haram is not fighting for them or for their good. They are the ones that can say these things to those people. If they gradually do that, a lot of them, even at the risk of their lives, will give out better information to our security agents. Because you can’t fight a war like this successfully without getting good intelligence from the local people. Some are afraid. If there is nothing you can die for, then you really have nothing to live for. The reality is if you don’t give out these information, one day, these same people will kill you. If you give out information and they catch you, they kill you. If you don’t give out information, one day, they will still kill you. Is it not better to give out information? They have to try to convince them, to make them feel that they are Nigerians.
That gives me fulfilment. December 26th is an incredible day for me here in Warri. I did not fully understand the word Boxing Day. I thought it was a feast thing, but then I began to understand that it is a day where many things are packaged; it’s a day of boxing things to give to people. So we do that here every December 26th. We give out cars, tricycles. That’s my joy. I’m a pastor. How much do I have? What can I do? Very little. But there are big businessmen, big companies; if we all try to do a little; everybody seems to be pushing it all to government but government can’t do everything. We can all do something. If I do a little something, and somebody else does, and everybody else does, you would be surprised how many people we can take out of poverty, how many people we can actually put on their feet so they can stand for themselves and fend for themselves. It will change this country.
The theme of the Jubilee: Talitha Cumi Arise 2015, does it have anything to do with next year elections? What’s the purpose of the theme?
I have a chair in my bedroom where I kneel to pray, but sometimes I sit if I’m praying for long, it’s like a rocking chair. I was sitting there meditating some five months ago. I can’t explain whether it was a trance, but I saw something like a screen, and written on it were the words: ‘TALITHA CUMI’. I happen to know that phrase because I’ve preached from it for years and I know that it means, `Damsel arise’. Underneath it I saw ‘ARISE 2015’. I know we are in 2014, why 2015? And the impression from God came to me that this year is preparatory towards 2015. Many things have been predicted about 2015, but the Lord impressed on me that many things that were dead will come alive. Hopeless situations, God will bring life into them. But also that Nigeria will arise. This nation will not go under. Nigeria will not be consumed. Nigeria will survive. It will be tough, but God says we will arise. So it’s very prophetic. It will definitely affect 2015. Call it the election, call it the aftermath of the election, call it whatever, but we will survive 2015. When Nigeria survives 2015, Nigeria will survive anything.
In view of the growing insurgency in parts of the country, why has NIREC not held any meeting to address the challenge?
I am as puzzled as you are because the Sultan and I are co-chairs of that organisation. We’ve not had a meeting now for almost two years and I’m puzzled because at least three times I have been informed of a meeting. We were supposed to meet in Gombe, only for the Secretary/coordinator, Prof. Ishaq Oloyede, to call to tell me it won’t hold, something happened, the governor was going somewhere or something. We fixed another date, he came up with something again.
We fixed a third date; they came up with something again why it could not hold. At a point, they even said there was no money. But early this year, I was told that there was some money now, so I said let’s do it. I talked with the two very important people involved. I suggested some dates; they said those dates were not good. So I’m still waiting for a date.
So it has nothing to do with me. I would love that we sit and talk. And we should be able to put these issues on the table and put timeline and agree on how we want to solve some of the problems facing Nigeria today. The traditional rulers, the religious leaders and political leaders; these three groups of people are very crucial to solving the problems facing Nigeria today.
Recently we heard that there was a ceasefire, later we were told that there was no ceasefire whatsoever……
I think I’m the wrong person to ask this because, first of all, I was not part of it. I don’t know anything about any ceasefire. You people should ask the relevant authorities to explain what they meant by ceasefire because I have no idea. What I know from what some very devout Muslims have told me is that when a Jihad starts, they don’t stop. The Jihad has to be completed. They either die or they achieve their goal. And the goal is to Islamize Nigeria. The real war is a war between the ideology of Sharia and the ideology of democracy. This is the war that is going on, and it is a worldwide war.
In Nigeria, we are ostriches; we put our heads in the sand. The western world is doing the same. They think as long as they are hiding in the sand, their problems will vanish. It’s not going anywhere. We have to face reality. The problem is real. Boko Haram will not negotiate with anybody. It’s a waste of time, energy and effort. They may end up talking with some people. But the problem is there are people who are still killing people and raising up their flags every day in different places. This is the reality on ground. Let’s stop the deception. Let’s stop the games. What is happening is real. People are being killed on a daily basis. So what ceasefire? There’s nothing like that anywhere. Shekau himself has been coming out almost every day, saying he doesn’t know anything about any deal. What deal is anybody going to strike with you that is going to stop this trend now that is going on?
Four-way solution
To me, there are three or four things that should be done to solve this problem of insurgency in Nigeria. I don’t know if we can ever totally eradicate it but I think we can reduce it drastically and isolate it.
Number one, Christians must not relent in their prayers. There has to be a divine input into what is happening. I have a feeling that God has helped us as a country; if not, the situation would be worse. So I want to plead with every well-meaning Nigerian to pray and pray harder.
Number two, the military must not relent. They must buckle up. I find it very difficult to criticise them and just pull them down to say they are useless and all that. I’m not telling you that I’m satisfied with what I see, but I find it difficult to do that. There are many reasons for that. Number one, these men are Nigerians like us. The difference is that they signed to become soldiers. They are married with wives and children. They are being killed also and their wives made widows and their children orphans. Why should I stand here now to say that they are useless? Having said that, there is a serious problem in our security agency, the problem of sabotage. I’ve been crying out about this for almost two years now, now a lot of people are talking about it. There is serious sabotage. It’s been there, it is just being magnified more and more. All our security agencies have this problem. There are people sympathetic to Boko Haram; some of them are even literally Boko Haram themselves. They leak information every day. It has become so bad that even reporters now get the stories.
The other day I read where a plane was to go and bomb a Boko Harm stronghold which could have stopped the recent invasion of Mubi; but as the plane was approaching its destination, the pilot got a call that he should return to base and he returned to base and these people did all they wanted to do, then they said he should go. So who made that call? Well, I don’t know if they’ve found out who made the call now. There was also an armoured car that was abandoned intentionally. When journalists report and say the soldiers ran away, they make it sound too simple. That’s not what really happened.
From the information I have sometimes, there are some commanders, not all, who will refuse to give the command. By military operations, soldiers cannot attack or respond without a command. Now, if the man who is to command them is not giving them command, and it’s obvious they are going to kill them, what do you expect them to do? So some of them drop their weapons and run. The picture has to be painted correctly. So that’s why some of them run away like that. Then there are some who the thing has been arranged, the people want to leave these weapons for the other people, so they are instructed to run. So they just run away and leave the weapons. It’s not really that they are afraid or can’t fight, but it’s still this sabotage issue. They have to work out the mechanisms by which they can fish out these people.
No matter the equipment you buy; you can buy all the modern equipment, it is getting to a point where the problem is not of poor equipment, the problem is that these saboteurs are using these equipment against government in the sense that they are handing them over to the insurgents. So these crazy people use these same equipment bought with Nigerian money to kill Nigerians. This is an issue that must be looked into seriously and addressed urgently.
Now the third thing; this is also very important, Nigerians, I beg us, let us stop this pretence. It is either we are totally ignorant, which I will be surprised of, or we are totally wicked and pretentious. We keep saying that this thing is not religious; it’s an insult to the sensibility of the average Nigerian. So when will we agree that this is a religious problem? When Nigeria is wiped out? When these people overrun the whole nation before we will know? I read in the papers today that an insurgent was walking around the streets of Mubi preaching. The report states that Boko Haram patrol captured towns preaching to residents. Are they going round begging for food? They are preaching. Preaching what? Don’t we know what they are preaching? They are preaching Sharia. Why are we pretending to be politically correct?
Doctrines
There are Muslims that are good friends and I associate with. I love them. I cannot hate Muslims. Why should I? My religion forbids me to do that, but I am begging these people that Muslim clerics, the notable ones from all the denominations of Islam, because Islam has denominations; all the Muslim clerics, all the Muslim political leaders, all the Muslim traditional rulers; these three groups should please for God’s sake and for the sake of Nigeria and for the sake of their own future and their own children and children’s children, they should come together.
Boko Haram will not listen to me. Boko Haram is an ideology. Please ask this question, what is the Salafi ideology in Islam? What is the Wahhabi doctrine in Islam? Are there doctrines like that? Yes. What are the doctrines that these terrorists around the world believe in? The doctrines they are teaching, are they not coming out of this Wahhabi and Salafi doctrines? Boko Haram is basically an ideology. To defeat an ideology, you need a superior ideology. Many of our Muslim brothers have come to say to those of us who don’t know much about Islam that these people are not Muslims.
Alright, but what are these people preaching? Is it not from the Quran? Now you say you have the real thing that this is not the real thing. Then match the real thing with the unreal thing or with the fake. In other words, they must engage these people. There are few Muslim clerics that these people respect till tomorrow. From what I hear, they like discussing the Quran, up to Shekau himself. They must find ways to engage them. I will never have access to them. They don’t even want to hear anything about me because I’m an infidel. But they would listen to some of these clerics. They must locate them, find ways to engage them probably through some of these their Quranic studies and scholars, they may be able to get to a point where they can discourage some of their activities and gradually get them to become sane again.
Local intelligence
Number four will be for these same religious clerics to help us go to the grassroots and start convincing the average person on the streets probably in the mosques, that they are Nigerians and Nigeria is a good place to belong to. Because certain things are being told to the people; they should start telling them that this is a great country to believe in. They should make them understand that Boko Haram is not fighting for them or for their good. They are the ones that can say these things to those people. If they gradually do that, a lot of them, even at the risk of their lives, will give out better information to our security agents. Because you can’t fight a war like this successfully without getting good intelligence from the local people. Some are afraid. If there is nothing you can die for, then you really have nothing to live for. The reality is if you don’t give out these information, one day, these same people will kill you. If you give out information and they catch you, they kill you. If you don’t give out information, one day, they will still kill you. Is it not better to give out information? They have to try to convince them, to make them feel that they are Nigerians.
Government will also play their part. But it is not about poverty. They are destroying all the infrastructures that would help put food on people’s table, so it’s not about poverty. If you buy car for every single one and build a house for every one of them, it’s not going to solve the problem because it’s a problem of ideology. So they have to bring some reorientation. These things must happen. So there must be a grassroots work. Like I said, government has a part, but to me, government’s part in this thing is not as strong as religious leaders, political leaders and traditional rulers. They have a greater part to play in solving this problem. Government will arm the military and all that stuff, but all these three groups are the ones that need to help us to get to the grassroots.
A lot of Almajiri schools have been built everywhere, how many schools have been built for Christians? Do you think a Christian can go to almajiri school? Are there no Christians in the North? Who is crying out for them? Who is speaking out for them? Their own children are roaming the streets.
Anti-Christian moves
Are we not all aware of what the nice governor of Bauchi State did in Tafawa Balewa and other areas dominated predominantly by Christians? How he went and closed down a girl’s secondary school 2011. Most of the students are Christians. He took the Muslim students from there and put them into other Muslim schools and abandoned all the Christian students. They have nowhere to go till today. Who cares? Where are our human rights organisations? Where are our civil society groups? Is it that they became deaf and dumb intentionally? Those girls are roaming the streets. If they want, we can go and show them. They are all over the place. I can go on and on and show you some of these things.
There is also the challenge of porous borders that need to be properly policed. Those are government issues too. The borders are porous and they need to look at the kind of people they post to those borders too; not people who are sympathetic to this madness. You post the same kind of people to the borders wearing government uniforms but working for Boko Haram, they will go there and just be telling people to pass with all the big trailers allegedly carrying food, cow and other things whereas they are loaded with equipment that are coming into this country from different directions.
Are you not aware that Libyans have joined them? Are you not aware that Somalians are among them now? Are you not aware that Tunisians are among them? From different parts, they are there among them now, fighting alongside the insurgents. Our borders are so porous. Not only the land borders, but even the air and sea. What of all the weapons that were found in Lagos, where are the weapons till today? Iran was indicted. Where are those people that were caught? What has happened to them? What about the ones found in Kano? We were later told that they were linked to certain Lebanese people based in Kano and Abuja. What has happened to all those things? What has happened to all those people? Have some of those places not been reopened in Abuja? What are we doing to this country? And we say we want to fight insurgency. All these problems are there. If we look at all these things realistically, holistically, genuinely, honestly, with integrity, we may wipe out insurgency and probably, if nothing else, reduce it to the barest minimum.
Otherwise, you think Nigeria may go the way of Turkey?
Turkey, some time ago, was 100 per cent Christians. The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire that was a neighbour to Constantinople was a 19-year-old boy. And the Christians were warned of what was going to happen, they said it could not happen. They sent emissaries to him. He received them. They said ‘we told you, they are so nice’. When the boy turned 21, he invaded Constantinople. Guess who helped him? Christians. The cannon with which he blew down the walls were invented by a Bulgarian Christian that was even inside Constantinople. He invented this thing and approached the king of Constantinople for money in exchange for the weapon, the man said he didn’t have.
The inventor sneaked out of town with his invention, went to the Sultan and the Sultan gave him money and collected the equipment and helped to lead the troops to blow down the whole wall. In the meantime, Christians inside had been fighting each other, talking nonsense about nothing. When they saw the invaders approaching, they held hands to say they were praying. Which prayer? And they came in straight, and the first place they went to was the church. And the Sultan walked into the church shouting ‘Allah Akbar’; and made his way to the pulpit, made some rituals and turned it into a mosque. For the next 1,000 years, that building was used as a mosque. The man who started the modern day Turkey by introducing democracy, what he did was to stop the place from being used as a mosque but he didn’t return it to the church. Instead he turned it into a museum. So inside that museum, you will see Muslim things and you will see Christian things. Do you think if that place was originally a mosque and was changed to a church, and they came and stopped the church, you think they will not change it back to a mosque?
Arab colonisation
Look at what is happening in Jerusalem. When we talk like this, some people will attack me. Look at the Al-Aqsa Mosque; was there not something in that place before that mosque? There was a Jewish temple there before that mosque. Why is it that the world never ask questions? If the original thing there was a mosque, and the Jews came and built a synagogue or a temple on top of it, you think it will stand? They would have blown it up by now. Everybody is talking about the mosque. What about what was built there before the mosque? Nobody is asking, nobody is talking.
We talk about western colonization; what about Arab colonization? We never talk about it. We pretend that it doesn’t exist or it didn’t happen. What happened to Egypt? Is it not the same thing that happened in Turkey? For over 1,000 years, Egypt was totally a Christian nation. The Arabs invaded. They came in. In the usual stupidity of Christians, they said it could not happen. They killed them like rats. And brought in a lot of Arabs within 50 years. Today, Egypt is known as an Arab country. Were the Pharaohs Arabs? Please let’s be realistic. They were real Africans, black people. Is that what you have there today?
What happened in Sudan? Why is it that Sudan split? You have Southern Sudan and Sudan. The whole of Sudan was pure black people. The same thing, they came in from Egypt and raided that place, took it over. Killed the men, dashed themselves the women, and brought in a lot of Arabs. Within 50 years or thereabouts, it became Arab Republic or Islam Republic or something. Today, everybody is seeing Sudan now as an Arab country. But was it really an Arab country? Is Sudan really an Arab country? Nobody asks questions.
I can push it further. Fulani herdsmen kill innocent natives across the nation, rape women and do several despicable things to people in the nation, but what do we hear ? Calls for compensation for them. People clamour for grazing land for them as if to say the nation should compensate them for killing innocent Nigerians. Nobody has asked the question as to where herdsmen get sophisticated weapons like AK47 from? Do you know that for the past 30 to 40 years, no church organisation has been issued a certificate of occupancy to build a church in the far North?
Go to the North of Nigeria and see the suffering of Christians. Are you aware that generally across the North, you cannot be a traditional ruler except you convert? Go to Gwoza. Gwoza is 80 per cent Christians, but they have an Emir of Gwoza. Does it make sense? That a place where 80 per cent of the people are Christians, you start an emirate, and there’s an emir who is a Muslim over 80 per cent Christians. Look at Mubi that was just taken over; there was an Emir of Mubi. In a place that is also over 80 per cent Christians. Can it be the other way round? Can you try it?
Can you go to Sokoto and say that from now it’s a Christian traditional ruler that will rule over a particular area? The only Christian in Bauchi State House of Assembly is a woman and she was thrown out. What did she do? The House woke up one day with the governor, and decided that a local government area headquarters that was located in a Christian area be relocated to a Muslim enclave. And they just did it like that. The woman got up and said no. They said she insulted the House. Her tenure is almost over, they took her security, took her car, no salary for almost three months. What has anybody done? All kinds of things have happened.
We have a Christian President and all these things are happening to Christians. People are complaining that the President is weak, he doesn’t act. What do you think?
Well, personally, I will say that people’s styles are different. All leaders will not operate the same way. So don’t rule out that possibility. Also, because personalities and style would be different, you also discover that there could be a leader who feels that because I’m a Christian, I should not do things that will make people think that I’m favouring Christians and would bend backwards to satisfy the Muslim side so that they will be happy. All I will tell you is that the man is bending backwards to satisfy these our brothers. He is the President of both Christians and Muslims. But the funny thing is our Muslim brothers complain that he is not treating them well. You sit back and wonder, it’s puzzling.
Look at the National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA), which is supposed to care of refugees, give relief to internally displaced persons when all these things are going on. I think the Director General or whatever of NEMA is a Muslim. Five out of six of the zonal coordinators in the six geo-political zones are Muslims. Only one is a Christian. My people especially in the North complain every day that the relief materials meant for displaced persons don’t get to them. In fact, as we sit here today, there were about five or six of them in this office today from Mubi and other places to see me. A pastor from Mubi told me that the clothes with which he managed to escape death was what he was still wearing. They told me that in some of the camps where they claim to take relief materials to, they don’t give relief to Christians. They told me that there are Muslims who come from their homes to collect the relief and go back home while the displaced Christians in the camp are wallowing and struggling and nothing is getting to them.
From my own observation, Mr. Jonathan bends backwards to satisfy our brothers. But I think he should look again very carefully at the treatment Christians are receiving. It is just too much.
I heard of the Potiskum Secondary School attack. Did you hear that they said I’m the Christian Boko Haram? Is it not amusing? That I’m the one killing all these people who are being killed now. Why are we so wicked? Why are we like this? I was reading about a prominent man I’ve always respected in Kaduna, an elderly man saying that insurgency is a creation of government or somebody just to win election. I just sat down and was shocked that an educated man, elderly man could be talking like this with what we are seeing with our eyes. It’s unbelievable. Is it that all these people don’t know the truth? They do know the truth, but we just pretend or wickedly don’t want to touch the truth. If you try it, then they shout. That’s what some of us are suffering. If I’m nice and accept everything, I will be getting awards left and right and getting tons of money, they will recommend me to become this and that, hailing me all over the world, while my people are dying.
I met some northern Christians who are accusing Christians in the South of not coming to their aid as much as some few people like you do. Do you still have a problem galvanising southern Christian leaders to assist these people?
We have a serious problem. Most Christians in the South are naïve. They don’t get it. I don’t know whether it is because their uncle has not been killed, or their father has not yet died. I went to the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, there were many good things there but the thing that interested me most was what a German pastor by name Martin said. He said: “When they came for the communist; I said nothing because I was not a communist. When they came for the socialist, I did and said nothing because I was not a socialist. When they came for the labour unions, I did nothing because I was not in the labour union. When they came for the Jews, I did nothing because I was not a Jew. When they came for me, there was nobody left to say anything”.
I think he eventually died in jail. That is what is happening to us in the South. Most of us think that this thing is a joke because it has not yet affected us directly. But the reality is, if we do not support these people and help them, God forbid, the madness we are seeing, these people believe they can go to any length. They have interest in the South. Their people are already scattered all over the South. They are everywhere waiting to unleash mayhem on southerners. But the reality again is that the average southern Christian does not understand that what is happening in the North is actually happening to them. So we need to wake up, we need to understand that these people are Christians just like us.
Somebody said you are being attacked because of your outspokenness. Will this deter you?
God forbid! It cannot! The day I keep quiet, in my own opinion, I ought to resign being the leader of Christians. Is it the title? Is being President of CAN a title? I believe that being president of CAN should be an institution that should be respected, but anybody who takes the position of that institution, must take the responsibility that goes with the position. And one of the key things that brought about the birth of CAN is that it must be a voice for the voiceless. The moment that stops, then what is CAN? It’s also something that most people don’t even realise, that that was the purpose. I’m just doing my job, and as long as I’m President of CAN, I will continue to do my job by the grace of God.
